2023 Yukon Quest Canada musher roster and preview

With the Yukon Quest Alaska winding down, there's no real time to catch a breath as Yukon Quest Canada begins this weekend. Deep breath! This one is a tad shorter, and fewer teams, so hopefully we can make it through this... and the other races running this weekend. I know, I know, I'm starting to lose my mind a bit, too. 

This year the Canadian side are hosting three different races based on mileage, a 100, 250, and 450. Each class has just a handful of teams, but they should still be an exciting trio of races to follow. So let's get a run down, shall we?

As always, the roster is in alphabetical order and will be edited with bib numbers as soon as they are released.

450 Mile Roster

1 Aaron Peck (Elevation Dogs Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
2 Connor McMahon (Feral Racing Kennel) - Facebook / Instagram
3 Michelle Phillips (Tagish Lake Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
4 Mille Porsild  (Running Sled Dogs) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
5 Mayla Hill (Elevation Dogs Kennel) - Facebook / Kennel Facebook 
6 Louve Tweddell (Echoes Kennel) - Website / Facebook 

250 Mile Roster

21 Craig Houghton (Craig & Sean Racing Dogs) - Facebook
22 Ilana Kingsley (StinkyPup Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
23 Michael Burtnick (Keystone Sled Dogs) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
24 Aiyana O'Shaughnessy (Tagish Lake Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram 
25 Jess Sears (Dog Song Rising) - Facebook / Instagram

100 Mile Roster

40 Jonathan Lucas (Snowpigs) - Facebook
41 Luc Tweddell (Echoes Kennel) - Website / Facebook 
42 Debbie Knight (Skywolf K9 Adventures) - Facebook
43 Janna-Lee Cushing (Indian Lake Seppala Siberians) - Facebook
44 Nate Metzen (Northern Sharks Working Dogs) - Website / Facebook / Instagram

How to watch

The race is on! Well, almost. For those confused because we just followed a Quest race all last week, this is the Canadian side. You may remember that last year the two boards got into a tiff and decided to split. That divorce saw Alaska having to create a new online presence, where as the Canadian side got the Website, social media platforms, and most of the fans. 

Social Media
Best way to follow along is going to be through the Yukon Quest Facebook page - like with all divorces, one side gets all the goods and the Canadian side got everything when the two boards split and created two races. You can find the Yukon Quest page up and running and very Canadian these days. Make sure to follow the page as they are promising live feeds and lots of commentary. Don't forget Twitter and Instagram. They got those in the divorce, too.

They plan to do live streams on their Facebook, and Sebastian Schnuelle will no doubt write up a few reports throughout the race.

Trackers
And of course the beloved trackers will be LIVE once again to follow this race. Check back when the link goes live we'll add to this post.

It's another big race with a small roster, but the roster for the 450 is fierce. Should be a good watch. Comment below with how you'll be watching and who you are rooting for! 

If you like what you see and want to support my addiction (I mean HOBBY) of following these races and stalking (I mean cheering on) the mushers, you can buy me a slice of pizza (that really goes to paying for my internet/web expenses).

Eklund releases recap of race and statement on his WD

 Many in the mushing community, mushers and fans alike, were stunned by the Race Marshal's decision yesterday to pull Lauro Eklund from the YQA550. The race cited Rule 22, the "competitiveness rule", as their reason for ending the musher's race early. Many were confused as up to the point that a statement was made, Lauro seemed to be doing just fine. In fact, the race had posted pics and praise for the musher as he reached the checkpoint of Central (where he would later be withdrawn from).

The YQA's facebook post on the news of the withdrawal quickly blew up with many mushers - even those who had just completed the 300 and 80 mile YQA races - calling for a better explanation. Comments were lobbied that the YQA lost the spirit of the race, other mushers said this had them rethinking entering the race in the future. An entire discussion on how dog sled races cannot just cater to the teams that have the money and means to run a full time operation and to heck with those with jobs outside of training dogs.

The race has stayed mum on the decision past what was released in the original statement. Lauro's friends and family have not. Now the musher has chimed in saying that the race was perfect for 300 miles and that, ultimately, he does not understand the Race Marshal's decision and feels that he and his team were robbed of a finish.

Instead of summarizing, it's best to let the musher tell it all himself. You can read his post in full on his facebook page:

Time will tell if things change within the YQA. There have been some serious allegations against Race Marshal Mike McCowan - though not many have been made publicly. Whatever the outcome, hopefully more will come to light on the reasons the decision was made, and that Lauro continues towards his goals.

Sass wins YQA550 with "one of the best teams in the world."

Brent Sass crossed the finish line of the YQA550 at 7:45pm with his team of twelve frosty, happy dogs. The team pulled up to the famed Pumphouse met by friends, family, and fans to become the inaugural champion of the 550.

Brent led the race from day one, never truly relinquishing the lead. Sure, as he camped along the trail others would pass him, but not long after Brent would once again take control of the race. Brent averaged over four hours of lead time on the competition.

As the team made their way into the finish, the race had some technical difficulties and they lost their lights! Headlamps from handlers and race volunteers and officials were all that illuminated the champion as he congratulated and praised his dogs, hugged his dad, and took interview questions.

When asked how he feels about his chances for this year's Iditarod, Brent gave a nervous chuckle and began talking about how he is really proud of his team but that Iditarod has a highly competitive field. "My buddy Jessie Holmes is here, he came to watch my finish. I'm looking forward to battling with him out on the trail." He did say that he feels he has one of the best teams in the world, that they're highly experienced and that he feels good about how things will play out.

Brent spoke of several stand out dogs. Slater, one of his lead dogs at the finish, is seven and is "probably the best dog I'll ever get to drive." The high praise wasn't just for the old trail hardened veteran dogs, Brent pointed out a couple of younger dogs who he was on the fence about bringing on the Quest and Iditarod that more than proved themselves this week.

Over all, Sass should be very proud of how he ran this race. The musher told the media that he stuck to his game plan and didn't pay attention to what others were doing, which he says is easy to do on the Quest with the long runs between checkpoints allowing for camping. When asked what advice he had for other mushers Brent simply repeated the mantra he has tattooed on his arm: "Run your race."

The dogs are well fed and bedded down. The next team in should be Amanda Otto but don't look for her to come into the finish until - at earliest - 1am (but more likely between 2 and 3am) Thursday. Wade Marrs is third out of Nenana and barring more trouble he will be into the finish in the next seven to eight hours.

Brent Sass summed up his race best: "It was a hell of an adventure! I'm so proud of these guys-this team."

We *OTTO* know better by now

In the words of Yogi Bera, it ain't over til it's over. Amanda Otto shot from seventh place when she left Two Rivers last night to now sitting in Nenana in second place. That whole "Wade and Nic racing for second" prediction was a day too soon. We *Otto* know better by now, dog races are far from predictable.

Well... mostly far from predictable. Fans noticed Nic Petit stalling several times over night, some had expected a turn like this earlier in the race. Nic likes to run at a fast clip and while that seems to work for him in the 200 and 300 mile races, it's bit him in the butt a few times and it has here. Nic posted a pic on the trail saying that they were having to camp for more rest after "making mistakes" and that now he's turning from race mode into fun trip mode. He turns a lot of races into "fun trips". Which is all well and good, but one wonders when he'll try to take a page out of Brent Sass' book and re-evaluate his [lack of] strategy and maybe coach the team differently. 

Wade Marrs also reported difficulty before leaving Two Rivers. He left three dogs behind with handlers to preserve his core team for the Iditarod, but also reported he had some dogs in heat and so the males were less than focused. Both Marrs and Petit were considerably slower on the leg from Two Rivers to Nenana neither having made it into Nenana by the time noon rolled around. 

With Marrs and Petit faltering, it gave Otto even more of a chance to really jump in the standings. The musher out of Husky Homestead took a chance and made the bold move to run the full 100 miles without camping partway through - something Brent Sass elected to do. She rolled into Nenana a little before 11:30am. She is only four hours and fifteen minutes behind Sass.

Brent Sass, of course, had Nenana all to himself for most of the morning. The Champion team made it to the checkpoint at 7:09am and left right on time after his six hour mandatory rest at 1:09pm. He will have about fifty miles until the finish mostly on the Tanana river that they ran on all night. Judging by speeds it won't be a fast run, and without knowing the current trail reports one can only wonder if the spots that slowed Sass and stalled Marrs and Petit have gotten worse.

Judging by Sass's current movement we're looking at 5 to 6 hours before a finish. Right now it looks like a 7pm ish finish, but things can change. It ain't over til it's over.

Oh, and Amanda Otto can leave at 5:26pm.

Brent Sass sitting on a giant cushion

If you've been following along with the Yukon Quest Alaska 550, you are not at all surprised to know that Brent Sass has, essentially, run away with the competition. The experienced champion has over a four and a half hour lead ahead of the chase pack, and there seems to be no slowing him down. Sass prides himself on the "trot" strategy. The dogs never lope or run, they stay at a steady trot, and that's how they make it first to the finish. 

Sass and team ran into the Two Rivers Inbound checkpoint at 11:23am on Tuesday carrying two of his dogs. There is a mandatory four hour rest and vet check in this checkpoint, and Brent elected to stay almost a half hour more in the checkpoint knowing full well that he could afford to take his time. Sass does not typically rest in checkpoints unless mandated, so to see him take his time was a tad interesting - but his social media team assures fans this was all part of the plan. Brent left the two dogs he carried into the checkpoint in his handlers' capable hands and headed for Nenana at 4pm.

Just nine minutes later, Quest Rookie Wade Marrs and team pulled in. Marrs made up a lot of time on Petit, but lost it all and then some while climbing the infamous "Rosebud". While Marrs was second into the checkpoint, Petit was hot on his heels coming in fifteen minutes behind Marrs but with a run time 43 minutes faster than Marrs. Both took their mandatory and are now back out on the trail (at time of writing this we don't have official times out nor how many dogs they have on the line).

Riley Dyche will be out next to join the chase pack and could play spoiler for second or third place though he will have to make up at least and hour and a half time on Marrs and Petit - not impossible, but a lofty goal. Dyche will be able to leave at 10:01pm. 

Current red lantern for the 550 is Howling Ridge Kennel's Shaynee Traska after Lauro Eklund was withdrawn from the race by Race Marshal Mike McCowen sighting rule 22 - competitiveness. Rule 22 states: "The Race Marshal shall at any time withdraw or disqualify a Musher they feel is not making a true attempt at running a competitive race or is in a position to not keep up with the race thus endangering themselves, their dogs and/or causing undue burden upon the Yukon Quest Alaska organization. The Race Marshal shall make this call based upon the condition of the team, trail and weather conditions, attitude and skill level of the musher and the pace at which the team and other teams are traveling. Any musher whose conduct, lack of skills and/or conditioning of their team to meet trail conditions which would expose the team or musher to personal risk in the judgment of the Race Marshal, shall also be withdrawn or disqualified."

Eklund was seven hours behind the next slowest team (Traska) when he reached the checkpoint of Central (inbound). Traska left shortly after he arrived and his team was in need of a break. When Lauro made it to Central the race social media posts praised him for his dog care and his speed saying in any other year with a bigger roster he'd be middle of the pack. By morning the decision was made to pull the team with the basic explanation that the race marshal found Eklund to be not competitive. 

Fans and mushers alike have shared their displeasure since the decision. Requests for further explanation were met with the press statement of rule 22. 

Sass is currently 53 miles from the Nenana checkpoint. From there he will have a six hour mandatory layover before another 55 or so miles to the finish line. Yukon Quest personnel expect a "late afternoon" finish on Wednesday for the champion.

Matt Hall takes Yukon Quest Alaska 300 title

From start to finish, Matt Hall's team from Smokin' Aces Kennel dominated the trail. The musher from Eagle, Alaska, took the lead early Saturday and never truly relinquished it.

Fans of the race quickly lamented that Hall's team was looking so strong that they should have run the 550. Hall had planned originally to run the longer race, but due to a trail change announcement in January due to poor trail conditions, the trail for the 550 would now pass by the Smokin' Aces kennel three times and Hall did not want to confuse his team with that many drivebys. Opting to run the 300 made Matt the odds on favorite from the onset.

Hall and team finished their race at 4:17pm as the sun was setting over Central, Alaska. His frosty faced team of nine dogs were still tight on the line and eager for their snacks. 

Though Matt Hall had a clear lead, there were some exciting moments watching Isaac Teaford, running a team from Dallas Seavey's racing kennel, eat up some miles on the champion team. Teaford came into the finish with his team (and a very icy beard) 55 minutes behind Hall.

For the 550, Brent Sass has a comfortable lead and is the only one in and out of Central on the way back. He rested at least four hours on the trail before the checkpoint as is his norm (he would rather rest on the trail than in a checkpoint). Nicolas Petit is working on challenging the reigning champion, but his strategy of resting in the checkpoints has kept him with a significant disadvantage timing wise. At present Sass has at least a four hour lead on Petit.

The 300 teams will continue to finish throughout the night, and we're still at least a couple days from a finish for the 550.

2023 Yukon Quest Alaska night two

Teams are approaching the northern most checkpoint of Circle tonight for both the 550 and 300 races. Brent Sass in the 550 and Matt Hall for the 300 are currently leading their respective races, but the race is far from over for Sass, and Hall has a team close on his tail. 

This is one of the most difficult legs of the race, and teams will have to go back through this on their way to the next checkpoint (550) and finish (300). This section of trail includes what's known as the switchbacks which often sees slow speeds as the trail follows a very windy river bed that often sees massive overflow.

Most of the teams choosing not to rest long in the checkpoint of Central stopped just shy of the start of the Switchback for a good rest before continuing through the "slogfest". With no teams yet into Circle it will be a while yet before we will have accurate trail conditions, still teams seem to be going one to two miles per hour slower than on previous sections of trail. This is to be expected.

The 550 teams will no doubt take a break once they reach Circle, though it is not a checkpoint that has a set number of mandatory rest hours. The 300 must all take six hours plus their differential in Circle. We could see a finish as early as Monday evening for the three hundred.

For Matt Hall, this has been his race, but he hasn't been alone. He's played leapfrog several times with Isaac Teaford. Teaford is running a team from Dallas Seavey's kennel which has a few pups on their first race. Teaford is doing exceedingly well with the team and sticking right in there with Hall. With both teams just needing their 6 hours, it looks like Matt will leave with quite the cushion as he has a four mile lead on the second team.

For the 550, Brent Sass has about a 24 mile lead on the next musher (who appears to be Nicolas Petit at this time though the trackers for the 550 are not pinging consistently in the Switchbacks to have an accurate measurement). Petit has banked at least three hours more in the checkpoints than Sass has, however, and that may come into play later as they make sure to hit their mandatory level of rest. Brent prefers to rest out of checkpoints, though, so his team still has plenty left in the tank for the return trip. 

From Circle mushers will head back down through the Switchbacks to Central - for the 300 this is where their race will end, for the 550 they will return to Central, Mile 101, and Two Rivers before heading to Nenana and finally the finish line in Fairbanks. 

It's a slow go tonight. Expect Brent to come into Circle within the hour and the others to trickle in throughout the night and morning.

Yukon Quest Alaska night one update

After a flawless start to the Yukon Quest Alaska races, teams made their way to the first checkpoint of Pleasant Valley near Two Rivers, Alaska. Trail reports said that the trail was "slow going", yet the leading teams of the 550 made it into the checkpoint roughly fifteen minutes ahead of predicted times by the race's social media. 

The 550 took off from Fairbanks at 11am, and Brent Sass was first into Two Rivers at 2:44pm leaving one minute later to head back onto the trail. Riley Dyche came into the checkpoint just six minutes behind the Yukon Quest and Iditarod Champion.

The 300 took off from Fairbanks at 11:30am and the first teams were into Two Rivers by 4pm. First in was Isaac Teaford (running a team of dogs out of Dallas Seavey's kennel) at 3:53pm. Keaton Loebrich came in seven minutes behind Teaford, followed a minute later by 2017 Quest champion Matt Hall. Loebrich elected to stay in the checkpoint as Hall spent just minutes in the checkpoint before continuing down the trail with a plan to camp between Two Rivers and the next checkpoint (Mile 101).

For the Yukon Quest it is hardly uncommon to see teams camp inbetween checkpoints. While the Iditarod is run so quickly with checkpoints close together making camping on the trail a thing of the past, the Quest is a little slower trail (thanks to the difficult terrain) plus there can be close to 100 miles between checkpoints. This style of mushing fits that of teams like Brent Sass and Cody Strathe, and we're already seeing teams hunker down tonight.

As the trackers sit not moving, expect teams to rest for a minimum of four hours in their camping spot. While some teams are on the move after short rests in Two Rivers, do not expect a lot of action until (at earliest) 10pm Alaska time. 

Skies were mostly clear throughout the day on the trail, so it will no doubt be a gorgeous night under the Snow Moon for the teams. The daytime temps ranged from five to ten above, but as the sun went down so did the mercury and according to accuweather temps on the trail are at about -5. Perfect weather conditions for a night on the Yukon Quest.

The Yukon Quest 80 "Fun Run" has most of its teams into the halfway point of Pleasant Valley. Without knowing the rules about rest, there's no way to tell when teams will make their return to the finish - but expect a late night early morning finish for that race.

If you like what you see and want to support my addiction (I mean HOBBY) of following these races and stalking (I mean cheering on) the mushers, you can buy me a slice of pizza (that really goes to paying for my internet/web expenses).

2023 Yukon Quest 550 & 300 rosters

The time has come! It's officially February, and February belongs to the Yukon Quest. Of course, this year that means two separates Quests as the two boards could not come together and work to bring back the thousand mile race. So we get two Quests over two weekends and the first one up is the Alaska side. They're holding three classes, the 550mile race, the 300 mile race (both can be qualifiers for Iditarod), and an 80 mile "fun run".

Since this blog is mainly about Iditarod and its qualifiers, we're going to stick with the two races that count towards that musher report card. Bibs will be drawn Thursday evening, so expect the roster to be edited Friday to reflect bib numbers. For now, we'll just go alphabetically.

YQ 550 Roster

1 Brent Sass (Wild & Free) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
2 Riley Dyche (Dark Horse Sled Dogs) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
3 Wade Marrs (Stump Jumpin' Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
4 Cody Strathe (Squid Acres) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
5 Nicolas Petit (Team Petit) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
6 Deke Naaktgeboren (Nautique Sky Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
7 Amanda Otto (Husky Homestead) - Facebook / Kennel Facebook / Instagram
8 Shaynee Traska (Howling Ridge) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
9 Lauro Eklund (Skookum Expeditions) - Website / Facebook / Facebook 2 / Instagram / Instagram 2

YQ 300 Roster

1 Jeff Reid (Frozen Trident Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Twitter / Instagram
2 Keaton Loebrich - can't find them online anywhere!
3 Ashley Dove (Crooked Creek) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
4 Samantha Lalonde (Ryno Kennel) - Facebook / Kennel Facebook / Instagram
5 Ron Stiffler Jr (Fast & the Furry) - Facebook
6 Isaac Teaford (Dallas Seavey Racing) - Facebook
7 Jennifer LaBar (Rocking Ridge Kennel) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
8 Matt Hall (Smokin' Aces) - Website / Facebook / Instagram
9 Vickie Justice (Awl Alaskan Kennel) - Facebook / Instagram

If you like what you see and want to support my addiction (I mean HOBBY) of following these races and stalking (I mean cheering on) the mushers, you can buy me a slice of pizza (that really goes to paying for my internet/web expenses).

Yukon Board responds to Alaskan Board's 2023 Quest Press Release

Yesterday a press release was issued that caused a stir in the long-distance mushing community when the Alaskan Board of Directors for the Yukon Quest announced that the race as we have come to know it is no more. As with most splits, the reasons are all he said she said, but the reason given last night was that the Yukon Board "would not budge" on their proposed rule changes. Now that board is coming out saying that's simply not the case. You can read the Anchorage Daily News article shared last night here. Below is the statement posted on Facebook today by Yukon Board President Susan Rogan:

The Yukon board became aware of this Alaskan board press release this morning when our ED received a phone call from the Fairbanks News Miner. They were gracious enough to send us a copy so we could discuss the contents of it for their news article. The press release was created and sent out unilaterally by the Alaskan Board and ED with zero knowledge of it or involvement on behalf of the Yukon board. 

There is a false statement that needs to be dealt. That being that the Yukon Board refuses to have a race without significant changes. In fact, the Yukon Board agreed to support a 1000 mile Yukon Quest International Race in 2023, with exactly the same rules as in 2020. And this was what the Alaskan board wanted. 

We agreed to put the trail in to the border as usual, to organize the start banquet, start line, and checkpoints as per usual. We agreed to share the facebook page, website, etc. all as per usual. 

There were two items the Alaskans did not like. One was that the Yukon board stated that we would raise the purse for the shorter races, while the Alaskans would be responsible for the purse for the 1000 mile race. The other was that we wanted to run the shorter races according to our format with mandatory rest. It was the Yukon's turn to host the 300. Both boards had agreed with the idea of having 2 or 3 shorter races in order to involve more mushers and develop their skills with an eye to them being feeder races for the Yukon Quest. 

The Alaskan board however, decided that the Yukon would host a 300 mile race, according to the 2020 rules. 

The Alaskan board also announced in the meeting last Friday that they had held a meeting with the Rules Committee that day, without inviting the Yukon Board or letting us know about it. They said the Rules Committee had already passed a decree that there would be NO RULE CHANGES, for the 2023 race. (Even though we had discussed previously that both sides had a few housekeeping issues they'd like addressed.) FYI, the 'Rules Committee' has no Yukon members, and one of the RC members sits on the Alaskan board, in fact is one of the two board members on the negotiating team. Anyway, the Alaskan team said the Rules Committee had already ruled that they would not change any rules, so no changes would happen. And we as the board asking for changes, need 3 votes of four on the negotiating team to change anything, which we won't have, so no changes would happen through this route either. That my friends is how it went down. 

The Alaskan board concluded their negotiation by adding, 'the Yukon side pays for half of everything', (refering to the purse I presume), and the final insult, 'the Yukon Quest is an Alaskan race, originally organized by Alaskans, and will continue in Alaska...'

The Yukon delegation stated that the existing Yukon board would not agree to this proclamation by the Alaska board, and that it was a surprise to us but we were prepared for it. I said this was not a negotiation. It was 100% what the Alaskan Board wanted, not one inch was given toward the ideas of the Yukon Board. We added that this was not done in good faith. (secret meeting with the rules committee included.) The negotiations were concluded, there was nothing more to discuss. 

The Yukon delegation said we would have a special meeting on the Yukon side to ask our membership if they would like to work with Alaska in putting on the 2023 race according to their sole wishes. If our membership voted 'yes', then we would ask them to step forward to form a board and do the work. If they voted 'no' and therefore to have separate races, then we would have to talk about where to from here. (Just for this year? Permanently? Have a race at all? Dissolve the organization? Who gets what? name, logos etc.)

This morning, before becoming aware of the Alaskan 'press release', we sent an email to the Alaskan board asking them to confirm 'what we heard' - and we itemized the contents of the meeting. We asked them to correct anything we got wrong. We went on to say we should work together in a spirit if dignity, honesty and respect, to honour the Yukon Quest and all of our stakeholders past and present. Having a public feud serves no one. And yet, here we are. 

To be clear: The Yukon Board agreed to support the 2023, 1000 mile race according to the 2020 / existing rules. We AGREED to the rules and structure that the Alaskan board wanted. We never pulled an ultimatum. We said the existing board members would resign. We said we did not have the power to make a decision not to have a 1000 mile race, we would have to put it to our membership in a special meeting. 

The only point of disagreement was the Alaskan board insisted that we would run the shorter races that we alone were hosting, the way the Alaskan board wanted it run. And they probably still had the feeling that we should pay half the purse for the 1000 as is normal, though that did not specifically come up. 

These are the facts. I have the 'sent messages' to the Alaskan board to prove it if necessary.

The Yukon board has still not had a single phone call or email from the Alaskan board, not even a copy of the press release. It was given out to everyone BUT the Yukon board.

The Yukon Board objects to the way this 'press release' was handled. The reputation of the Yukon Quest and our stakeholders, deserved better. We do however feel that at this point, it is important to be clear about what the Yukon board said. 

Susie Rogan, President of the YQIA (Yukon Board) 

Bonnie Michaudville

Executive Director

It remains to be seen just what this will mean come February for "the other" premiere long distance race in Alaska, but by the looks of it, the Yukon Quest as we know it is gone for good.